While true, the estimated average IQ at Harvard is 142. IQ is highly associated ... (2024)

p-e-w 8 months ago | next [–]

> IQ is highly associated with self-control and discipline.

I'd like to see a citation for that, especially for the idea that the self-control/discipline associated with high IQs transfers over to non-academic aspects of life, which is what's in question here.

Gareth321 8 months ago | parent | next [–]

Here you go: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2614657/

> Delay behavior in both sexes was also correlated positively with IQ and with Q-sort-derived indexes of ego resiliency and ego control. The relationship between ego control and delay behavior was particularly strong after both IQ and ego resiliency were partialled. These results were interpreted as reflecting the fundamental importance of both cognitive skillfulness and impulse control for adaptive delay behavior in situations that contain strong motivational inducements.

This study doesn’t measure academic related delayed gratification. I’m surprised to be asked for a source. This has been settled science for decades.

DropInIn 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]

I'm pretty sure they're conflating a higher likelihood of determining an action precluding risk factor prior to action with actual self control and discipline....

It's more just that the smarter you are the more likely you are to both recognize the existence of the risk factor as well as "do the math" before your impulses induce action.

meindnoch 8 months ago | prev [–]

Estimated average IQ from SAT score.

So it's bullsh*t. They just cram SAT prep non-stop with private tutors.

candiodari 8 months ago | parent | next [–]

And this explains the question pose as well. They don't self-sabotage. They just "jump through academic hoops" ... but not through their own effort, or only with great assistance. This help they get just really breaks for most in the university years.

They don't self-sabotage, they just lose their advantage.

Gareth321 8 months ago | parent | prev [–]

> So it's bullsh*t.

That’s quite the opinion. Do you have any evidence to back that up? Countless studies have found that SAT scores are highly correlated with intelligence. Both “g” and IQ, which are roughly equivalent for this context. For example: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=...

And here is another: http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/koening2008.pdf

411111111111111 8 months ago | root | parent [–]

I don't think anyone would argue otherwise, the controversy is that IQ test results can be increased significantly by training.

But that discussion ultimately boils down to what intelligence really is... You either subscribe to the believe that it's essentially something you're born with or something that can be improved by training.

IQ tests fundamentally cannot measure for the former definition, but I does a decent job for the latter.

Gareth321 8 months ago | root | parent [–]

The user I replied to is clearly arguing that SATs do not provide any correlation with IQ. They called the proposition “bullsh*t.”

As for your question, g is very difficult to improve through training. Almost impossible in adulthood. The only studies I am aware of which indicate an ability to improve IQ score over time are those which allow participants to repeatedly take similar IQ tests. This enables the respondents to practise the type of question and answer faster and more accurately. Obviously this would produce an inaccurate result, over-estimating the intelligence of the individual.

To draw parallels with the SAT, I see evidence that repeated attempts reveal gaps in one’s knowledge and skill, and these are prerequisites for the test. This permits the individual to study those areas and practise the kinds of skills required to improve their score. Given this, we should acknowledge that the SAT is not a perfect analogue for IQ tests, but in aggregate, they do yield striking correlation. To tie this to my premise above, it is highly likely that the average Harvard student has an above-average IQ.

411111111111111 8 months ago | root | parent [–]

They are BS under the first definition.

And I think we've gotten quiet far from the context their statement was made in.

The premise was that intelligence increases self control/delayed gratification. From this, we've extrapolated that havard students will have on average a higher self control, because they've had the the privilege of a much better education, which caused their IQ scores to be quiet high.

Personally, I'd agree that this extrapolation is flawed, because both factors are only correlated with no causal link.

Gareth321 8 months ago | root | parent [–]

> They are BS under the first definition.

I provided a study which shows high correlation. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

I don’t agree with your summary of the premise. It doesn’t follow that more training means higher IQ scores, but I acknowledge it could mean higher SAT scores for individuals. Just not in aggregate.

411111111111111 8 months ago | root | parent [–]

Correlation is not causation and is meaningless for extrapolations. The only thing it provides is interesting data to discover the causality through further study.

But I guess you're too far gone into narcissism to understand how dumb this has gotten.

Gareth321 8 months ago | root | parent | next [–]

I made no claims about causation. The claim is correlation. Perhaps you should re-read the comments :)

411111111111111 8 months ago | root | parent | next [–]

you're extrapolation, thus you're using it as a causation.

Let me give you an example:

Swiss cheese has holes, by studying its properties you can find a correlation between the size of the cheese and the total volume of holes.

You do another study and find that as you increase the size of the holes the cheese, you're left with less grams of cheese.

by your logic, which extrapolates between these two unrelated studies finding different correlations, you can confidently state this:

 more cheese correlates with more holes more holes correlates with less cheese more cheese == less cheese

searealist 8 months ago | root | parent | prev [–]

The claim being made is correlation.