Sarah:
Welcome back for another great episode.
Sarah:
My name is Sarah Karakaian.
Annette:
I am Annette Grant, and together we are--
Both Annette & Sarah:
Thanks for Visiting.
Sarah:
We've got an exciting episode for you today.
Sarah:
But before we travel abroad, hint, hint, we're going to kick off this episode like
Sarah:
we do every week, and that is sharing one of you, our loyal listeners who's
Sarah:
using our hashtag #STRShareSunday, which I just learned has over 20,000 tags.
Annette:
Sarah, be honest.
Annette:
Remember when we first started?
Annette:
Sarah told me the story a long time after we got started, but
Annette:
we had no followers on Instagram.
Annette:
No one was using our hashtag and she said one night she was laying
Annette:
in bed, wait, tell-- it's so funny.
Annette:
She was like, forget it, this is never going to work.
Annette:
We had two people that use STR Share and it was me and her.
Annette:
And we had two podcast listeners, her mom and my mom.
Annette:
She literally was going to throw in the towel.
Sarah:
Oh, I don't forget it.
Sarah:
And I was also sleeping on a mattress, one of our flips has
Sarah:
taken us five years to finish.
Annette:
What we're saying here is we are completely blown away.
Annette:
Thank you.
Annette:
Every hashtag matters.
Annette:
Every podcast download matters.
Annette:
Every review really matters.
Annette:
But we're going to share one of you today that has used our hashtag, and
Annette:
today we are sharing @meetme_atmango.
Annette:
Again, that's @meetme_atmango.
Annette:
Be in the show notes.
Annette:
And this was so much fun going through Shoshana's feed.
Annette:
Her feed is just as bright and colorful as her property.
Annette:
She is in Fort Lauderdale.
Annette:
Please check her out.
Annette:
She put in a hot pink Christmas tree.
Annette:
But everything here, I can tell she poured her heart and soul into this property.
Annette:
And one thing that really sticks out that I want to let you know is
Annette:
she has a lot of beds, but she's done it in a really tasteful way.
Annette:
Two twin beds.
Annette:
Two full beds.
Annette:
She hasn't done the bunk bed route.
Annette:
If you know that you need to sleep a lot of people, and some of us are
Annette:
like that, you need to have these properties that you can compare.
Annette:
She's in Fort Lauderdale.
Annette:
A lot of people are going there with a lot of people to travel.
Annette:
And so I just appreciate that instead of all the bunk beds, she was like, I'm
Annette:
still going to get the headcount that I need to make the numbers work, but I'm
Annette:
going to do it in a different direction.
Annette:
And I think that's just a really great way to do it.
Annette:
Another thing is something that Shoshana has done that I haven't seen as much
Annette:
with hosts is she has the shoppable button inside her Instagram feed.
Annette:
And when you see that, it's like a little shopping bag.
Annette:
And I think she has affiliates accounts here.
Annette:
For instance, she has an outdoor shower, and that links to Florin Decor.
Annette:
It's the same tile that she has used.
Annette:
And so if you double tap on it, she has links out to all the things
Annette:
that she's designed her home with.
Annette:
So I'm hoping she's getting affiliate commissions from this.
Annette:
But well done.
Annette:
Please check out her reels.
Annette:
Check out her design.
Annette:
And I just appreciate what she's done here.
Annette:
And she has, um, some influencers that have stayed at her place and
Annette:
she's pinned their TikTok and reels.
Annette:
So well done.
Annette:
Check her out.
Annette:
And I absolutely love her logo and the name.
Annette:
It's after the three mango trees in her front yard.
Annette:
But, Sarah, let's get to the episode.
Sarah:
Well, per usual, we have an episode that is completely selfish, but we're
Sarah:
hoping all of you can benefit from it too.
Sarah:
Annette and I have toyed with the idea of, we want to buy something soon here.
Sarah:
We were like, we got money.
Sarah:
We want to-- it's burning off--
Annette:
By the water.
Sarah:
Yeah, by the water.
Sarah:
And it's burning a hole in our pocket.
Sarah:
We thought about Mexico and we dream, and it's like, but what don't
Sarah:
we know about buying in a country that we didn't grow up in, that we
Sarah:
know nothing about that culture?
Sarah:
So we thought we would bring in one of our Hosting Business Mastery Members.
Sarah:
We've got Julie here who's going to tell her incredible journey of getting from
Sarah:
backpacking in Australia to owning in Costa Rica while calling Canada home.
Sarah:
So with that, Julie, welcome to the show.
Julie:
Thank you.
Julie:
So yeah, my husband and I met backpacking many, many years ago.
Julie:
We've actually been married for 20, almost 22 years.
Julie:
So we met quite a few years ago in Australia, backpacking.
Julie:
And it's funny, I had to go-- he's Canadian as well, and so
Julie:
I had to go halfway around the world to find another Canadian.
Annette:
That's how it works, right?
Julie:
How it works, right?
Julie:
And we weren't even living in the same parts of the country at the time.
Julie:
This was just at the early stages of email and the internet, so we were penpaling and
Julie:
writing love letters back and forth, and Sunday evening phone calls and all that.
Julie:
And I eventually decided to move to Vancouver from Montreal to be
Julie:
with him and to see where it goes.
Julie:
Well, our relationship started and Australia planted a seed, and we
Julie:
decided to go back to Australia and work there for a few years.
Julie:
He was in the IT industry.
Julie:
There was a lot of demand for his skills, and we thought that
Julie:
could be a fun adventure for us.
Julie:
One of the things we both loved was travel.
Julie:
So we were in Sydney, Australia for four years.
Julie:
During that time, we were talking about what the future would look like.
Julie:
And short-term rentals weren't really a thing then, bed and
Julie:
breakfast were more of a thing.
Julie:
And even on our honeymoon we would discuss ideas of what we could do.
Julie:
And we've always liked hosting people and you have friends come
Julie:
stay with us, and wouldn't it be fun if we could do that as a business?
Julie:
But it was always this crazy far out idea.
Julie:
So then we moved back to Vancouver after spending four years in
Julie:
Australia and life starts happening.
Julie:
We bought a house.
Julie:
We got a dog.
Julie:
We started our family with our daughter, and that dream just got shelfed.
Julie:
And so did the dream of going back overseas.
Julie:
We had thought we would just go back to Vancouver for a few years, but
Julie:
then a few years turned into 16.
Julie:
Always with this discussion in the background.
Julie:
So from there, it was this fireside chat we always had like, oh, wouldn't
Julie:
it be nice if we'd go somewhere, and what's holding us back?
Julie:
And we started with, we should just downsize.
Julie:
We should just sell everything.
Julie:
We should sell the house.
Julie:
A little sidebar on that, we already had some long-term
Julie:
rental investments at that point.
Annette:
I was going to ask you, in this suburban time that you and
Annette:
your husband, uh, were doing your suburban life, were you starting
Annette:
to invest in real estate though?
Julie:
Yeah, we were.
Julie:
My husband found the long-term real estate space and that just ignited him.
Julie:
That just lit him up.
Julie:
So that was happening.
Julie:
But short-term was still this weird unknown idea that we
Julie:
couldn't, I mean, we didn't want to have it done in our own house.
Julie:
So we wanted to go back overseas and live somewhere.
Julie:
And started looking at what potential places we could live.
Julie:
And Costa Rica came on our horizon.
Julie:
So we decided that the first thing we had to do was sell our house, sell our
Julie:
belongings, and start putting ourselves-- getting our ducks in a row to move.
Annette:
Okay.
Annette:
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Annette:
I have ideas.
Annette:
Trust me, I got lot of ideas, but it's not get my ducks in a
Annette:
row and move to another country.
Annette:
I want to know.
Annette:
How does the discussion start?
Annette:
Is it, hey, there's a little fire inside, we want to go back overseas?
Annette:
Do you start going on Zillow?
Annette:
Did you take a family vacation and it really sparked it?
Annette:
Because what you're saying to me is mind blowing, ducks in a row, long-term
Annette:
property, short-term, downsize our family.
Annette:
These are giant life decisions.
Annette:
And was it you more than your husband?
Annette:
Yeah.
Annette:
What was really the key thing that lit the fire, the fire starter, if you will?
Julie:
I like to do a lot of research.
Julie:
When I get an idea in my head, I need to do a deep dive into it.
Julie:
Whether I read all the books or I find all the websites, whatever it is.
Julie:
Just the idea of moving to Costa Rica, we talked about it often in our little
Julie:
fireside chats, what would it look like?
Julie:
We're like, well, we're not going to move somewhere cold.
Annette:
Okay, see, this is what I wanted.
Annette:
You start really using your imagination.
Annette:
Okay.
Julie:
Yeah.
Julie:
So moving somewhere cold, that's not going to be an option.
Julie:
So that took Europe and other countries out of the mix.
Julie:
With aging parents, we didn't want to be halfway around the world again.
Julie:
So appealing as a place like Thailand or other destinations like that would
Julie:
be really cool, it's just too far time zone-wise, trying to coordinate family
Julie:
discussions when you have aging parents.
Annette:
Mm-hmm.
Julie:
We had to also consider schools because we were bringing
Julie:
a teenager for the ride with us.
Julie:
We had to consider where there was going to be some good
Julie:
international schools for her.
Julie:
So as I did all my research and would have these evenings of just diving
Julie:
deep on the internet, Costa Rica we kept coming up and kept coming up.
Julie:
And so we planned our first trip, just Mark and I, coming
Julie:
down here four years ago.
Julie:
And just exploring some-- we only had a couple weeks.
Julie:
That was all that we could get away for, so we decided to just focus on,
Julie:
as it turns out, the area that we live in now because it called to us.
Julie:
All the research I was doing felt this pull.
Julie:
And we came down and we fell in love with it.
Julie:
But honestly, at the time, I was a suburban mom.
Julie:
Moving from that and all my comforts to rural jungle Costa Rica, I was
Julie:
like, okay, yeah, this is really nice.
Julie:
It's fun to be on vacation.
Julie:
We're not doing this.
Julie:
I can't see myself here.
Julie:
And then we planned a family holiday a year later just before the pandemic and
Julie:
explored different parts of the country.
Julie:
I don't know, I guess we still felt the pull to Costa Rica and perhaps
Julie:
there was just this little-- I thought maybe for somewhere a little more
Julie:
touristy that would be more appealing.
Julie:
And it was funny, it had the opposite effect.
Julie:
Once we had a taste of a more developed touristy Costa Rica, we're
Julie:
like, this is not it for us, at all.
Julie:
We really want to go back to where we initially thought we didn't belong, which
Julie:
is more rural and more lush and more green, and that's what's going to happen.
Julie:
So we made a plan for June, 2020 once the school year ended
Julie:
that we would make that happen.
Julie:
And meanwhile, we sold our house.
Julie:
We sold most of our things.
Annette:
Is your daughter kicking and screaming?
Julie:
Oh yeah.
Annette:
If I'm a teenage girl, I'm pissed.
Annette:
What are you doing?
Annette:
Let's talk about that.
Annette:
That's a real-- let's talk about teenagers.
Annette:
I have never had a teenager, but I can only imagine.
Sarah:
But I've been one.
Annette:
Right.
Annette:
A female teenager, not that females and males any are worse, but it
Annette:
sounds like she's the only child.
Annette:
I'm just like, I can't imagine.
Annette:
Let's talk about that.
Annette:
Is it like, this is done, this is the decision, or is she part of this?
Annette:
How do you involve her in this conversation?
Julie:
So she was part of the conversation, but not with an option
Julie:
of opting out, if that makes any sense.
Julie:
So it was, we want to do this, what can we do to make it as
Julie:
comfortable for you as possible?
Julie:
And the agreement that we actually came to is that we
Julie:
would fly her back to Vancouver.
Julie:
She's been traveling on her own since she was eight years old.
Julie:
We're a family that travels a lot.
Julie:
So she's been flying to grandma and grandpa on the other side of the--
Julie:
in Montreal since she was eight.
Julie:
And she's now been flying internationally on her own since she was, I think it's 14.
Julie:
Yeah.
Julie:
In fact, she's actually there right now, uh, because it's the
Julie:
Easter break here right now.
Julie:
So I've got the house to myself.
Julie:
So that was the compromise we came to, is that she would get to visit her
Julie:
friends at least once or twice a year.
Julie:
And that we would do everything that we could within our
Julie:
means to make that happen.
Sarah:
Do a little shadowing.
Sarah:
Did she end up liking the move or is she still kicking and screaming?
Julie:
She has come a long way.
Julie:
Bear in mind the timing of when we did all this.
Julie:
We had planned to do this in 2020.
Julie:
School is online, you're not really seeing your friends much.
Julie:
And then we move here and a lot of the same things.
Julie:
School was online here.
Julie:
They were only in class maybe once or twice a week, depending on the peaks and
Julie:
the highs and lows of what was going on.
Julie:
Really, really tough time to be the new kid in school.
Julie:
And also going from a school where there's perhaps 30 children
Julie:
in a classroom, there's now 30 children in the entire high school.
Julie:
She's in a classroom of six.
Julie:
So a very large change, very hard to be that new kid in that environment.
Julie:
So that first year was pretty tough and it was tough on everyone in various ways.
Julie:
But yeah, to try and meet other families.
Julie:
Nobody else is moving here with teens, so trying to find other people
Julie:
in our same position was difficult.
Annette:
Both of these original trips, the first one that you took with your husband
Annette:
and then the second one that you took as a family, were you meeting with realtors?
Annette:
Is it like, yeah, you're there traveling, but obviously, are
Annette:
you meeting with realtors?
Annette:
Are you going to banks?
Annette:
What type of-- I know you said you're a researcher.
Annette:
Are you that dialed in like you already had houses to look
Annette:
at, you already had areas?
Annette:
What did those trips look like?
Julie:
So all the research I was looking at was pointing to not
Julie:
rushing into things, um, that whole fools rush in mentality.
Julie:
So we did after that second trip, the one that we took as a family and
Julie:
went to the more touristy Northern Guanacaste area, is my husband
Julie:
within two weeks was back down here.
Julie:
He's like, okay, I'm going back.
Julie:
I'm going to start looking at lots.
Julie:
And that's when he-- yeah.
Annette:
In two weeks, okay.
Sarah:
Let's go.
Julie:
Oh, yeah.
Julie:
We were home for two weeks and he was like, okay, I'm going back.
Annette:
Oh, wow.
Julie:
So he in a week had a different realtor lined up for every single day
Julie:
with all our things that we're looking at.
Julie:
Now, bear in mind the background you're seeing, this is actually
Julie:
a rental house that we're in.
Julie:
We have been renting for two-and a-bit years.
Julie:
Because of that whole fools rush in thing, we did purchase land
Julie:
on that, I guess would've been his third trip to Costa Rica.
Julie:
But we've been taking our time, learning as much as we can
Julie:
about how to build down here.
Julie:
And that's even a whole other podcast.
Julie:
So all the research that I was looking into was pointing into just taking
Julie:
it slow because things are different and you learn a lot about yourself.
Julie:
You learn a lot about your needs, um, when you're renting.
Annette:
What is the property difference financially?
Annette:
You're Canadian, and I'm not as familiar financially there.
Annette:
When you were looking in comparison to your homes in Canada, what's
Annette:
the financial exchange there?
Annette:
Are you going to be able to buy a lot more in Costa Rica?
Annette:
Can you talk about some of the financial differences there?
Annette:
And then also once you answer that question, what do the mortgages look like?
Annette:
What's the difference, um, when you're purchasing in Costa Rica?
Julie:
Okay.
Julie:
So I'm going to actually answer your second question first.
Julie:
It is extremely difficult for a foreigner to get a mortgage down here.
Julie:
Not impossible but there's a lot of hoops you'd have to jump through.
Julie:
So it's a cash only deal.
Julie:
So right away that sets your budget.
Julie:
Whether you're buying land and then building on it, it's all cash.
Julie:
No builder is going to finance you.
Julie:
None of that.
Julie:
So you need to be very dialed in with your numbers and what you can
Julie:
afford, and also be prepared that you're going to go over budget.
Annette:
Okay.
Annette:
What was the dollar exchange though Canadian to Costa Rican?
Annette:
Is your dollar worth more in Canada than in Costa Rica?
Julie:
So here's where it gets fun.
Julie:
We tend to think more in terms of US dollar to Costa Rican dollar, and
Julie:
right now it's about 530 Colon to one US dollar, which is not great.
Julie:
We live off the income from our long-term rentals, which are actually in the US.
Annette:
Julie, now you just threw another wrench in whole--
Sarah:
You are a layered human being.
Julie:
Oh, there's a lot of layers.
Julie:
Part of leaving Canada, for us, was to-- Canada's a little different
Julie:
than the US in that we can get non-residency status for tax purposes.
Julie:
So we have not given up our citizenship, but because we've sold all our
Julie:
belongings and fulfilled all the criteria, we are no longer resident.
Julie:
So we no longer earn money in Canada.
Annette:
Ah.
Annette:
Interesting.
Annette:
Okay.
Julie:
Otherwise, we'd be paying tax double.
Julie:
So something to keep in mind.
Julie:
Yeah, that's a whole other thing.
Julie:
So we had to skirt that.
Julie:
And because we had sold our house, the initial proceeds for doing all
Julie:
the short-term rental investing was the proceeds of our house sale.
Julie:
So cash deals.
Annette:
Okay.
Annette:
So talk to us and our listeners about that.
Annette:
So you sold the primary residence in Canada, the proceeds from that home sale.
Annette:
What have you purchased short-term rental-wise from that particular sale?
Julie:
So from that we've purchased three short term rentals.
Julie:
So the Vancouver housing market, uh, is extremely expensive and so at the
Julie:
time, in a pre-pandemic world, prices were more reasonable Right now, um,
Julie:
things have since gone up quite a bit.
Julie:
And so there's also some interesting thoughts on selling some of the
Julie:
properties that we've purchased.
Julie:
But from the sale of the family home, we were able to purchase three apartments.
Annette:
Okay.
Julie:
The ones in Mexico were all pre-construction projects.
Julie:
So one we took possession of.
Julie:
The one in Akumal, we took possession of July, 2020, and the one in Puerto
Julie:
Vallarta is not going to be available until September, 2024, uh, although
Julie:
that could get pushed into 2025 if it goes the same way as the Akumal one did.
Julie:
Things happen on their own timeline internationally.
Annette:
That is one thing.
Annette:
We have had a few other guests on the show and then obviously
Annette:
conversations, and the construction timelines, number one, was something
Annette:
that became very apparent to them.
Annette:
And also just timelines for any laborer, whether it's someone helping you with
Annette:
turnovers, a plumber, an electrician.
Annette:
You got to really comfortable with timelines being extended normally.
Julie:
And a lot of that has to do with the culture.
Julie:
Um, especially when we come from a North American very efficiency-focused
Julie:
mentality where we tend to prioritize work above everything else, in
Julie:
Central America, family is everything.
Julie:
And so your tradesperson or whatever person you're working
Julie:
with, might not show up.
Julie:
They might show up later.
Julie:
They might not show up at all until the next day.
Julie:
And it's not because of laziness, it's not because of a want of work.
Julie:
It's like their mom needed them that morning.
Julie:
And so that's the priority.
Julie:
Mom needed me, or my family needed me in some way, or an uncle passed away
Julie:
and now we're all going to the funeral.
Julie:
Those are the things that as a foreigner, you just need to learn to adjust too,
Julie:
because family comes before everything.
Julie:
And in some people it's even religion comes above that.
Julie:
But for the most part, family is first.
Annette:
Interesting.
Annette:
I mean, not interesting.
Annette:
It should be how things are, but we have some things server us--
Julie:
Yeah.
Julie:
But from a North American mentality, that we're focused on timelines, it's
Julie:
a very different way of thinking.
Annette:
Absolutely.
Sarah:
So right now, do you have any short-term rentals in operation?
Julie:
Yes, we have the one in Costa Rica, and the one in Akumal, Mexico.
Julie:
That's a little sidebar about the one in Mexico.
Julie:
We actually ended up-- we thought we were going to manage that one ourselves
Julie:
a lot more than we actually are.
Julie:
The reality of just life and budget and things is that we're not able to
Julie:
be there as often as we had initially planned when we purchased it.
Julie:
And so we've decided to go the property management route.
Julie:
And so we're a lot more hands off on that one except for the initial setup.
Julie:
And that's where all those HBMM lessons came in.
Julie:
And our property manager was very impressed with how detailed we were with
Julie:
the setting it up and making it just so.
Julie:
But as far as the rest of it goes, it's a lot more hands off for us.
Julie:
The one that is in Costa Rica right now, um, that we purchased
Julie:
about a year and a half ago, that one is full hands on for me.
Annette:
If you can share with us financially, how's it going for you?
Annette:
How's the property in Mexico going?
Annette:
How's the property in Costa Rica going?
Annette:
Let's start with the property in Mexico first, because you have a property
Annette:
manager and it sounded like you did your financials with you managing it.
Annette:
Talk us through those financials and how it's varying for you and your family.
Julie:
So the property in Mexico, the one in Akumal, it's doing reasonably well.
Julie:
It's weird when somebody else has their hands all over it because I feel
Julie:
like I don't have as much control.
Julie:
I'm not doing the marketing, I'm not doing all the things that I
Julie:
like to do to boost it up on the first page and all those things.
Julie:
So in that respect, it's not doing as well as I would like it to do,
Julie:
but it's still doing reasonably well.
Annette:
Okay.
Julie:
The one in Costa Rica is doing exceptionally well.
Julie:
So we're just coming out of high season and it's been pretty much
Julie:
solidly booked all through high season.
Julie:
I've only had a few gaps here and there with it not having guests.
Julie:
And that's actually been a good thing because it's allowed us to take care
Julie:
of a little bit of maintenance, um, in between guests at this time of year.
Annette:
Talk to us about the traveler.
Annette:
Who is the traveler coming to Costa Rica?
Annette:
Is it a lot of US citizens, Canadian citizens?
Annette:
What are you seeing coming through your doors in Costa Rica as far as the clients?
Julie:
When we first launched, funny enough, a lot of our clientele was-- so
Julie:
we launched a little over a year ago.
Julie:
A lot of our clientele were Costa Ricans because of the timing of it.
Julie:
We launched near the tail end of the high season, so a lot of the people
Julie:
that would've been planning ahead like the US market that would've been
Julie:
planning ahead, we weren't launched yet for them to plan ahead to come down.
Julie:
So it was mostly Costa Ricans who were looking to get away for
Julie:
the weekend down at the beach.
Julie:
So San Jose is about a 90 minute drive away.
Julie:
They can come down, have a nice weekend at the beach, and then go back
Julie:
to city life and their day to day.
Julie:
So very surprising, um, that those were our first initial guests or North
Julie:
Americans who were already in Costa Rica, either living or traveling and being a
Julie:
lot more flexible with their travel plans.
Julie:
And that carried us through the tail end of high season and most
Julie:
of the low season last year.
Julie:
And then that gave me the fire to achieve super host by the time would
Julie:
start booking their high season trips and then I would be on top for that.
Julie:
And then we were solidly booked pretty much from December through till now.
Annette:
Love it.
Annette:
What's this doing for you now?
Annette:
This property, you had to pay in full for it, correct?
Julie:
Yeah.
Annette:
So is there-- how is that balance?
Annette:
I'm making some assumptions here, but I'm assuming a lot of our listeners probably
Annette:
have some mortgage out on their short-term rental and maybe their primary residence.
Annette:
Is this cash flow right now for you and your husband to live?
Annette:
Are you guys still working?
Annette:
What is the plan with the income now from your two properties that you're
Annette:
currently hosting plus the next?
Annette:
Is that what you're living off of right now?
Annette:
Are you still working?
Annette:
Is your husband working?
Julie:
No, we're living mostly exclusively off of our combination
Julie:
of our long-term rental income and the short-term rental income.
Julie:
We live very modestly, so I think something to keep in mind as far as
Julie:
central American living, Costa Rica is not a cheap country to live in.
Julie:
And it's gotten more expensive in the two-and a-bit years
Julie:
since we've moved down here.
Julie:
So although we were able to do very well, um, by bringing up the level of
Julie:
service that we were providing, um, as a host, and the apartment, the one in
Julie:
Costa Rica, what it used to rent for in a month, on a monthly basis we're
Julie:
now getting in a week in high season.
Annette:
All right, let's slow that down.
Julie:
Yeah.
Annette:
Can you give us numbers in USD; would you mind doing that?
Julie:
No, um, we rented for a $1,000 a week.
Annette:
Okay.
Annette:
And so--
Julie:
And the previous owner used to get that a month, but with doing
Julie:
very little for the guests and not really providing great service.
Sarah:
So get specific there.
Sarah:
I mean, to us, Hosting Business Members, it probably seems obvious of the changes
Sarah:
you made, but just for fun, what are the exact changes you made that you think made
Sarah:
the biggest impact on that revenue change?
Julie:
Okay.
Julie:
So for starters, there were some cosmetic changes that we
Julie:
had to make to the apartment.
Julie:
And because we wanted to get it up and online quick, we had to look
Julie:
at our to-do list and prioritize.
Julie:
The obvious one at the time was furniture.
Julie:
What was in there was quite ugly.
Julie:
And so we prioritized the bedroom furniture, had something really nice made.
Julie:
Invested in some nice hotel quality bedding, and just really
Julie:
made that much more appealing.
Annette:
Was it a short-term rental before too?
Julie:
It was.
Annette:
Oh, so we're not even talking long-term rental.
Annette:
With this a short-term rental, you have four acts with--
Julie:
Yeah.
Julie:
It was an underperforming short-term rental.
Annette:
So good.
Annette:
Keep it going.
Julie:
The really appealing thing for us is, well, first of all, it's on the beach.
Julie:
It has a private rooftop deck, and it didn't have a cover on
Julie:
it the way the neighbors do.
Julie:
So it was wide open to the sun, which nobody was spending any time up there.
Julie:
None of the guests were spending time.
Julie:
So that was another priority of ours is, let's get that baby covered up and create
Julie:
a really nice outdoor space up there.
Julie:
So we put a hammock.
Julie:
We put a really nice seating area.
Julie:
We brought a barbecue in.
Julie:
All these little touches just to make it much more welcoming,
Julie:
and not just a crash place.
Julie:
And same thing in the living room.
Julie:
The living room and the kitchen, we didn't do too much except
Julie:
that we threw out a ton of crap.
Julie:
There was just a lot of clutter and junk that wasn't adding
Julie:
anything at all to this space.
Julie:
And instead we just gave it a nice little clean slate and, uh, put the
Julie:
things in the kitchen that really should be there, like a good coffee
Julie:
maker, some nice dishes, a toaster that didn't look like it was bought in 1980.
Julie:
It was just all these little things.
Julie:
And that got us going.
Julie:
And we started getting some guests booked in.
Julie:
And then as the money started coming in, we could then prioritize other purchases.
Julie:
A few things were some surprises that we were, for example, planning
Julie:
to replace the sofa, but then the washing machine crapped out and we
Julie:
had to replace the washer dryer.
Julie:
So sofa budget went to that.
Julie:
And of course, like I said, everything here, you purchase
Julie:
things on cash and so, um--
Annette:
Got you.
Julie:
You need to be prepared for that.
Julie:
That was a little bit of a financial surprise.
Julie:
And then, yeah, as the money comes in, we don't personally
Julie:
live off a lot of the income that comes from the short-term rental.
Julie:
It provides the little extras.
Julie:
We mostly live off the long-term rental income at this point, because
Julie:
a lot of money had to be spent in that first year just bringing the place up.
Annette:
Mm-hmm.
Julie:
Once we started getting it looking really good and taking really
Julie:
nice pictures and getting some good reviews, that really helped us be on
Julie:
page one and get more and more bookings.
Julie:
And then we could slowly raise the prices.
Annette:
And your property that's under construction, did you have
Annette:
to pay in full for that also?
Julie:
No, we have a special arrangement on that one.
Julie:
That one does have a mortgage on it.
Julie:
That's a whole other--
Annette:
You used the word special arrangement, so we were just
Annette:
like, we'll leave that there.
Julie:
No, sorry.
Julie:
No, I don't want to take it-- it could become a long conversation.
Annette:
No, but I appreciate that.
Julie:
My husband's very involved in these real estate investment groups
Julie:
and they do these bulk purchases where somebody in the group guarantees a
Julie:
special price by having 25 investors that are going to buy into thesame project.
Annette:
AD MARKER
Annette:
I want to talk about, strictly, are you getting all of your
Annette:
bookings from Airbnb right now?
Julie:
Mostly.
Julie:
So that is our main funnel.
Julie:
We're also on Vrbo, and we're also on Booking.
Julie:
And I've had a few bookings coming in that way.
Julie:
Those are not as easy to work with, especially in this market because they're
Julie:
not set up exactly for what we are offering, but I look at it as those are
Julie:
bookings I would not have had otherwise.
Annette:
Absolutely.
Julie:
And so--
Sarah:
Yeah.
Sarah:
Since why not.
Julie:
It's worth the pain factor of working with those organizations.
Julie:
But yeah, I would say 90% of our bookings come in from Airbnb and some
Julie:
of those have been repeats as well.
Annette:
Oh, love that.
Julie:
Yeah, so of course, you always mention, book with us again
Julie:
and contact us directly next time and we'll give you a better deal.
Julie:
And we've had people take us up on that.
Annette:
Love that.
Sarah:
Property in Costa Rica and property New Mexico, is your
Sarah:
mindset long-term wealth or is it getting to be your own boss?
Sarah:
Do we think about Costa Rica real estate the same as we would think
Sarah:
about it with the US real estate in terms of it appreciating?
Julie:
We're always looking at what the appreciation is.
Julie:
Um, we've actually got the Alkumal property up for sale right now just
Julie:
to see if we'd get any bites if it's worth just because it's appreciated.
Julie:
And we thought, well, in the long-term, are we going to do better by taking
Julie:
advantage of that appreciation and then being able to take that money
Julie:
and do something else with it?
Julie:
Or are we better off hanging onto it?
Julie:
Right now it looks like it's a better move to sell it.
Julie:
My buzzword with my husband, um, is always, what's the exit strategy?
Julie:
So any ideas that we always have about real estate is always, what could we
Julie:
do next, and what does the future hold?
Julie:
And so sometimes that means hanging onto things, and sometimes
Julie:
that means letting go of things.
Julie:
And right now, because we live full-time in Costa Rica, we're wanting to
Julie:
focus more of our efforts down here.
Julie:
And because it's a lot more challenging to get to and from Mexico from here
Julie:
than we initially had planned, we're not looking long-term to be in Mexico.
Julie:
But with a daughter who is soon going to graduate high school and leave the
Julie:
nest, we are looking at what other markets might we want to get into and
Julie:
other places we might want to travel to.
Julie:
So it's an ongoing conversation that we're always having.
Annette:
I used to get furious.
Annette:
I'm going to be vulnerable.
Annette:
I used to get furious when I would talk to businesses and the first thing they
Annette:
would talk about is their exit strategy.
Annette:
And I would just think it was the most not motivating for team members, and like,
Annette:
is that the only thing you're worried about is getting rid of your business?
Annette:
Do you even care about your business right now if you're only
Annette:
concerned about the exit strategy?
Annette:
And I can confess that I've completely changed my mindset about that to,
Annette:
why are you doing anything if you don't know what the exit strategy is?
Annette:
So I love that you said that because I think you do have to start with the end
Annette:
in mind, or you don't have a direction.
Annette:
You don't have a path, or it'll really help you change the path that you're on.
Annette:
And I do want everybody to listen to what you said, your buzz statement with your
Annette:
husband is, is what's the exit strategy?
Annette:
Because I think a lot of people are like, a, what's the worst-case scenario?
Annette:
What's the best-case scenario?
Annette:
But truly it is, what is the exit strategy here on whatever it may be?
Annette:
Is it buying the property?
Annette:
Is it starting the business?
Annette:
Because I think it forces you to fast forward and get really, really focused
Annette:
on why you're doing what you're doing.
Annette:
And then if you waffle and you're like, oh my gosh, a, there is no strategy,
Annette:
and b, there is no exit strategy, then we need to probably rethink all of it.
Annette:
So that has been a huge mindset shift for me from not wanting to talk about it at
Annette:
all, or thinking that was like the cap out thing for people or the easy way out.
Annette:
I'm like, no, that's the most strategic way, I think, to look at things instead of
Annette:
worst case, best case, the here and now.
Annette:
It's like, really what is that exit strategy there?
Annette:
So I love that.
Annette:
Have you and your husband always talked like that about the exit strategy or when
Annette:
did that conversation start to come up?
Julie:
I think it's mostly been in the past three years.
Julie:
I mean, the world is changing and changing very quickly and we've all had to learn
Julie:
to pivot a lot more quickly than we had.
Julie:
And honestly, the day we sold the house, it was like an albatross
Julie:
had been cut loose off my neck.
Julie:
And it suddenly gave us that comfort of not just getting stuck and
Julie:
doing the same thing all the time.
Sarah:
What a good a good way at, Julie.
Sarah:
I mean, very few people think of it that way.
Sarah:
You think of home as your base, as the most safe place ever.
Sarah:
And I appreciate your point of view of it being this thing that you could let go to
Sarah:
free you up to really follow your heart.
Sarah:
And I also appreciate that you lived in that home for a very long
Sarah:
time and represented a certain chapter or chapters in your life.
Sarah:
And so you're ready to turn the page.
Sarah:
And we all have different stories we're telling, but I do love that perspective.
Julie:
In the end, it's just stuff, right?
Sarah:
Mm-hmm.
Julie:
At least for us.
Julie:
To us, home is where we are together as a family.
Julie:
It's not necessarily a place that has been in the family for many years, or a
Julie:
place that has all these heirlooms in it.
Julie:
It's wherever we are together as a family is home to us.
Annette:
A couple of things because I know our listeners are going to want to know.
Annette:
A, what did your neighbors, your family and friends, did you get flack?
Annette:
Were they like, you are completely nuts?
Annette:
What are you doing?
Annette:
Talk to us about the backlash if there was from--
Sarah:
The backlash.
Sarah:
No, I know.
Sarah:
Everyone has--
Annette:
I'm sure friends, family, obviously, there were some backlash from
Annette:
your daughter, but what was the rest?
Julie:
Mostly people were excited for us.
Julie:
This is not something that would've been terribly surprising to
Julie:
most of our nearest and dearest.
Julie:
A lot of our closest friends had been part of that conversation with us
Julie:
where we would be saying, oh, wouldn't it be nice to do this again someday?
Julie:
So they always knew that we weren't necessarily going to stick around, um, in
Julie:
Vancouver forever, that there was a chance we were going to go settle somewhere else.
Julie:
So yeah, when we did make the big announcement, it was
Julie:
like, oh, that's super cool.
Julie:
And mostly supportive.
Julie:
A few people expressed concern for our daughter and the impact
Julie:
it was going to have on her.
Julie:
And it came from a place of love, not a place of judgment that, are
Julie:
you making the best decision for her?
Julie:
And we had to give that a lot of thought.
Julie:
But everybody that we had spoken to who-- we've got friends who
Julie:
grew up with military parents who got moved around a fair bit.
Julie:
All of those people said, I hated it at the time, but as a person,
Julie:
I grew and it helped me with what I was doing in the future.
Julie:
It made me more comfortable with change when I went off to university.
Julie:
It made me more comfortable with change when my husband or wife's
Julie:
job transferred us to-- it just made them more comfortable with change.
Julie:
And so helped us a lot with our decision, um, and being more comfortable
Julie:
that we were doing the right thing.
Sarah:
You are in our mastermind group, Hosting Business Mastery Members.
Sarah:
What I would say, 90%, if not more, of our members are not only US citizens, but
Sarah:
they own property in the United States.
Sarah:
We now a few members who live elsewhere and own elsewhere.
Sarah:
What [Inaudible] we talking about that you learned as an international host?
Sarah:
Can you think of anything off top of your head?
Julie:
Oh, yeah.
Julie:
How much time have you got?
Sarah:
Oh my God, so much time.
Sarah:
I'm so interested.
Julie:
So I've already touched a little bit on the culture change,
Julie:
and how we need to understand that we are the guests in a foreign country
Julie:
and that things are done differently.
Julie:
And it's not up to our hosts to adapt to us.
Julie:
It's the other way around.
Julie:
We need to adapt to the way things are, and understanding that family comes first.
Julie:
And also an effort to learn the language.
Julie:
That has helped me tremendously because you can't assume that your cleaners, or,
Julie:
I mean, in my case, hardly anybody that I deal with on the daily in regards to my
Julie:
business, whether it's a trades person, a repair person, air conditioner repair
Julie:
or replacement, um, my property manager, my cleaners, they all speak Spanish.
Julie:
And I, through taking a weekly lesson, but also a whole lot of Google translate,
Julie:
a whole lot of people, I've had to just learn to communicate and learn the
Julie:
ways of things being done down here.
Julie:
It's funny when I first started with HBMM, we were learning about all this different
Julie:
tech and all this really cool stuff, and I was like, oh yeah, how cool would that be.
Julie:
The reality is that they really like WhatsApp down here.
Annette:
Yeah.
Julie:
And so everything is done on WhatsApp and it's cool.
Julie:
We create groups.
Julie:
I've got a group that includes my cleaners because the place that we purchased here,
Julie:
it's part of a seven-apartment condominium complex with an onsite caretaker.
Julie:
And that was extremely appealing to us because as our first purchase in a foreign
Julie:
country, we wanted a bit of a handholding, a bit of a comfort zone there.
Julie:
So having an onsite caretaker helps a lot with that.
Julie:
The seller's agent turned out, uh, to be very knowledgeable about hospitality,
Julie:
and so we hit it off right away with us, and she became, not a full on
Julie:
property manager, but she handles our check-in and checkouts with us.
Julie:
But all of that is done in Spanish and all of that has
Julie:
required a whole lot of learning.
Julie:
And so, yeah, we do it all on WhatsApp.
Julie:
We take photos.
Julie:
So if there's something that's not quite right, they'll take a picture of it
Julie:
for me and send it to me on WhatsApp, like something's broken, something's
Julie:
not right or they've got a question.
Julie:
We just had a new cleaner and so we had to teach her how things
Julie:
were done with the previous cleaner and how were things we want now.
Julie:
So she would make the bed, take a picture, is this okay?
Julie:
No.
Julie:
We want this done.
Julie:
And then she'd take another picture and send us again, is this right?
Julie:
And so there was a lot of that going back and forth.
Julie:
And so we just had to be very, uh, very cognizant of that.
Julie:
Also to keep in mind, not everybody's level of literacy might be what
Julie:
you're used with where you're from.
Julie:
Being able to voice messages.
Julie:
Um, a lot of people in Costa Rica prefer to do that rather than spend
Julie:
time typing out a long message.
Julie:
They'll just hit record and message you something.
Julie:
So you've got to be comfortable with that.
Julie:
Infrastructure is huge.
Julie:
The infrastructure here is not at all what we're used to back in North America.
Julie:
So the power will go out.
Julie:
The internet will go out.
Julie:
The water will go out.
Julie:
And sometimes all three on the same day and all at once.
Julie:
And sometimes when you've got a guest staying there, sometimes when you've
Julie:
got a guest checking in that day, so you've got to be prepared for that, but
Julie:
you also need to prepare your guests.
Annette:
How do you prepare them for that?
Annette:
Is that something you say very clearly upfront?
Annette:
I mean, are you reimbursing for that or do you just let that
Annette:
be very known that's the way?
Julie:
It's part of my listing, and I call it my Price of Paradise clause.
Sarah:
Ooh, I like that.
Annette:
Copywriting.
Annette:
Yeah.
Sarah:
Hosting hot tip.
Julie:
I just call it Price of Paradise.
Julie:
And it says, this municipality is subject to occasional water,
Julie:
power, and internet outages.
Julie:
We provide bottled drinking water.
Julie:
We provide flashlights, and we provide an uninterrupted power source, also
Julie:
known as a UPS, and therefore there'll be no discounts for any inconvenience.
Julie:
So we're stating upfront what we are already doing for them.
Julie:
And showing that we are being proactive.
Julie:
But these things are beyond our control and we can't really do much else about it.
Annette:
Price of paradise.
Julie:
And so by knowing that upfront, we feel that they know what to expect.
Julie:
It's also in our guest manual, so if they have missed it, they also see it.
Julie:
And so far it hasn't been an issue.
Julie:
I mean, it's happened, but then right away, I'm communicating with the guests
Julie:
and saying, hey, I know the water's out, Sophia's going to drop off some
Julie:
extra bottled water for you guys.
Julie:
Hey, I know the internet is out, I've been in touch with the
Julie:
provider and they're working on it.
Julie:
I'm having to be proactive in communicating during this day and making
Julie:
sure they know that I'm aware of it and that I'm looking after them as best as I
Julie:
can by providing them with some options.
Julie:
And most of them are like, oh, we're just going to go to the beach, no problem.
Sarah:
And what another great tip.
Sarah:
I don't care where you live, but to be proactive and to have things set up.
Sarah:
So you know the powers out, you let your guests know first.
Sarah:
They don't let you know first.
Sarah:
As best as you can.
Sarah:
Especially in today's technology, if you're able to get those notifications.
Sarah:
We continue to impress our guests whenever we let them know.
Sarah:
They're like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know.
Sarah:
We were out getting bagels.
Sarah:
And I'm like, maybe you want to stay out a little longer because
Sarah:
there's no power back there.
Sarah:
And just letting them know that you care and that you're on top of it.
Julie:
And sometimes they have been the ones that let me know.
Julie:
I mean, the tech isn't perfect.
Sarah:
Right.
Sarah:
Sure.
Julie:
So sometimes I-- or I'm driving and I don't get the message
Julie:
until I'm at the grocery store, so I don't always get it immediately.
Julie:
And so we have little gifties that we have.
Julie:
They're in the land of coffee and chocolate, and so we always have
Julie:
some extra coffee and chocolate on hand so that we can drop it
Julie:
off as a little care package.
Julie:
Business we talk about in HBMM, whether it's coffee or bagels or whatever.
Julie:
We do that little treat to smooth things over.
Julie:
And up until now, like I said, people have been really good about it.
Julie:
And I don't know if it's because they were prepared and already told about it
Julie:
upfront or because we're communicating with them and we're not making excuses,
Julie:
we're being proactive, that they just seem to appreciate that a lot.
Annette:
I know we just went over the stuff that we didn't prepare you for, but
Annette:
we're going to do a selfish plug here.
Annette:
Talk to us about being a part of our group because you are in Costa Rica and
Annette:
a lot of our members are here in the US.
Annette:
Sarah and I like to know how you found us, why you made that
Annette:
decision to join our group, and what the group has done for you.
Julie:
I actually found you guys through the podcast initially.
Julie:
I was just trying to find information out there because my husband and I
Julie:
have always liked looking after people and we really wanted to focus on that
Julie:
part of hosting for short-term rentals around the time that we were purchasing
Julie:
this first one, um, in Costa Rica.
Julie:
And I just wasn't finding a lot of information out there.
Julie:
So when I came across you guys, I was like, holy crap, this
Julie:
is what I've been looking for.
Julie:
And then I think you did a plug about joining HBMM, and
Julie:
talked about it with my husband.
Julie:
And I said, we've invested in your career and your learning with
Julie:
long-term rental over the past few years, now it's time to invest in me.
Julie:
And so we did that.
Julie:
And biggest takeaway I've gotten from you guys is how to look after the guests
Julie:
and the messages before, from the time that they book and few days before,
Julie:
and the morning after their first night, and the checkout messaging, and
Julie:
asking them for the review afterwards.
Julie:
All that really caring for the guests and making sure that you provide some extras.
Julie:
Don't just provide four forks.
Julie:
Make sure the place is well kitted out.
Julie:
And all that list you guys provide, I mean, I was using
Julie:
that like a complete checklist.
Julie:
Okay, I've got to make sure I've got extra sheets on hand, extra
Julie:
towels on hand, extras of extras.
Julie:
So I found that was really helpful for me.
Julie:
And also the community.
Julie:
Just being able to talk with other people who had that same focus
Julie:
and that same care for the guests.
Annette:
I think that's the biggest thing is you don't
Annette:
realize you need the community.
Annette:
Because you said you talk to your team a lot, obviously, you're
Annette:
WhatsApp-ing constantly with them.
Annette:
But it's like you want to talk to other hosts and see what challenges they're
Annette:
having, what wins they're having.
Annette:
And that's where it's like, oh my gosh, wait, where are these other people?
Annette:
And let's talk about that one last thing here is, how are you connecting
Annette:
with-- are there other expats that you're becoming-- are you host friends
Annette:
with anybody, um, in Costa Rica?
Annette:
How has that been going for you?
Annette:
Are you meeting other hosts there?
Annette:
What's that look like?
Julie:
So one of the closest friends that we've met here, she's actually a neighbor
Julie:
of mine, but there's a little hotel just down the road and she owns that hotel.
Julie:
And she, like me, is very guest-focused.
Julie:
And so we bounce a lot of ideas off each other because we're both
Julie:
doing this in a foreign country.
Julie:
She's from the US.
Julie:
So if she's having a challenge with a guest, she'll bounce something off me.
Julie:
If I'm having a challenge, I'll bounce it off her.
Julie:
We both have dealt with staffing issues in the past year.
Julie:
How do we handle those delicate situations?
Julie:
So it's been really helpful to have her and likewise.
Annette:
No, that's so cool.
Annette:
Love it.
Sarah:
All right, Julie, we don't know about living abroad and owning abroad,
Sarah:
so what parting words do you have for our listeners that maybe we ask you
Sarah:
want to make sure that they know if they're thinking about buying anywhere
Sarah:
in the world other where they live?
Annette:
Yeah.
Annette:
What would you have told Julie when you and your husband were
Annette:
getting ready to take a dive?
Julie:
Well, for starters, be prepared to be paying for things in cash.
Julie:
We're so used to, as North Americans, putting everything on the credit
Julie:
card and then dealing with it.
Julie:
That's just not how things work in many international markets.
Julie:
You have to be prepared to pay workers in cash.
Julie:
Many small businesses want cash.
Julie:
And that has a little bit to do with taxation, which is
Julie:
a whole other conversation.
Julie:
In some markets, accepting a credit card, those businesses that don't want
Julie:
to take the extra hit, that 3%, that 5%.
Julie:
So you need to be prepared to have money on hand to do that.
Julie:
Over and all, go with the flow and don't sweat the small stuff.
Julie:
Don't worry about whether your cleaner put the pillows back on the bed exactly
Julie:
the way you want or whether all the mugs are lined up in the cupboard just right.
Julie:
It might be important in some markets.
Julie:
Here, you worry about whether your power's going to stay on during
Julie:
the guests stay or whether the air conditioning is going to crap out.
Julie:
And I've had to deal with that and I've had to be prepared to
Julie:
with it very quickly and come up with the solution very quickly.
Julie:
And so you just need to be very-- go with the flow.
Julie:
You'll have your little internal moment.
Annette:
Right.
Annette:
You can take hard, but the others, you need to take the impact of it.
Julie:
Yeah.
Julie:
Exactly.
Julie:
You need to just be focused, okay, move on, what's the solution, and
Julie:
let's deal with this and get it done.
Julie:
So yeah, you can't be bogged down with sweating it.
Annette:
Love it.
Annette:
And we will make sure, listeners, we will put Julie's listing in the show notes.
Annette:
So if you are traveling, please let her know you found her on the podcast.
Annette:
Stay with her.
Sarah:
I'm about to ask Annette if she wants to go to
Sarah:
Costa Rica and stay with you.
Sarah:
This sounds nice.
Annette:
This episode is really fun because I love that you just -. You
Annette:
and your husband obviously didn't happen that swiftly, but you made
Annette:
the decision and you went for it.
Annette:
Because I know there's a lot of people that are out there with
Annette:
hopes and dreams and they've been waffling on it for a while.
Annette:
So listeners, if this impacted you and you're getting ready to make a change,
Annette:
let us know so we can let Julie know that her story was inspiring to you.
Annette:
But go visit her also in Costa Rica.
Julie:
I think for us, the biggest thing that we always go back to,
Julie:
what's the worst that can happen?
Julie:
I moved from Montreal to Vancouver with that mentality.
Julie:
If this relationship doesn't work out, I either decide to stay or I turn
Julie:
around and go back to where I came from.
Julie:
We moved here, what's the worst that can happen?
Julie:
We bought our first property, what's the worst that can happen?
Julie:
Either it works or it doesn't work out.
Julie:
And what do we do to move on?
Julie:
And just to not get caught up with it too much.
Sarah:
That is solid advice for so many things in life.
Sarah:
I mean, obviously, you want to think about your decisions
Sarah:
and weigh the pros and cons.
Sarah:
Of course.
Sarah:
But when you ask yourself what's the worst that can happen, and you're like,
Sarah:
hmm, that's actually not the worst thing.
Sarah:
Yeah, that's not great, but I have to move back.
Sarah:
But I can move back.
Annette:
I said you made a swift decision, but I love when we started digging in
Annette:
to how you decided on the location, everything was so-- you had your head on
Annette:
straight like, we want to be in this time zone if we need to get to our parents.
Annette:
We want it to be warm.
Annette:
All of a sudden, it's like, wait, this decision that seemed from left
Annette:
field was very, very calculated and had a lot of time and a lot
Annette:
of your research also behind it.
Annette:
So it wasn't just out of nowhere.
Annette:
So I think we also just count all the pieces and parts that go into it.
Annette:
So hopefully we will see you not just on our Zoom calls with your beautiful
Annette:
background, but we'll be with you by your pool in the background.
Sarah:
Awesome.
Julie:
I'd love to have you.
Sarah:
Thank you so much, Julie, for your time and your openness about your story.
Sarah:
With that, I am Sarah Karakaian.
Annette:
I am Annette Grant, and together we are--
Both Annette & Sarah:
Thanks for Visiting.
