Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (2024)

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Vanguard No Longer Trading OTC Securities!!! Re: Vanguard No Longer Trading OTC Securities!!! Re: Vanguard No Longer Trading OTC Securities!!! Re: Vanguard No Longer Trading OTC Securities!!! OTC in IRA Re: OTC in IRA Re: OTC in IRA Re: OTC in IRA Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: OTC in IRA Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company? Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Topic Author

desafinado
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:14 am

Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby desafinado »

from Vanguard:

Dear Vanguard Client,

Beginning April 28, 2022, Vanguard will no longer accept purchases and transfers in of most over-the-counter (OTC) securities. This change allows us to better support a targeted, enduring suite of products and services rooted in Vanguard's time-tested investment philosophy and built to help secure the long-term success of investors.

According to our records, you either currently hold at least one of these restricted securities in your portfolio or have traded them in the past.

What does this mean for the securities I hold?

You can continue to hold and sell your positions in these securities. You can also make additional purchases of a small selection of global American Depositary Receipts (ADRs). Here's how you can determine if you hold an ADR that won't be restricted.

All three of the following criteria must apply to the ADR:

Consists of a five-letter ticker symbol that ends in "Y." This confirms it's traded OTC.
Has a market capitalization of over $300 million (in U.S. dollars). Market capitalization is the total market value of a company's outstanding shares.
Belongs to the top three tiers of the OTC markets (Pink Current, OTCQB, and OTCQX). These markets are up to date with disclosures and listing requirements.
Learn more about the OTC markets and individual securities at otcmarkets.com.

Thank you for investing with Vanguard.

This will mean that foreign ADRs will still be permitted to trade - e.g major companies like Ninentdo (NTDOY) or Tencent (TCHEY) - but smaller domestic OTC stocks will not be. Editorializing, I mostly view this as a common sense investor protection as many OTC stocks are very high risk and offer limited disclosures.

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tryingtobogle
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Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby tryingtobogle »

[Thread merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

Hi all,

You may have seen the email from Vanguard saying they will remove some of their OTC securities. The reasoning: "This change allows us to better support a targeted, enduring suite of products and services rooted in Vanguard's time-tested investment philosophy and built to help secure the long-term success of investors."

Does this have any significant meaning for the long-term health of the company? I know they say they want to secure the long-term success of investors, but I'm guessing it means they don't want to pay for these services anymore while other brokerages seem to have no problem doing so. Or maybe other brokerages will follow suite?

The email also says that people can always sell these securities even if Vanguard won't sell them. But how long does this typically last?

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bberris
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby bberris »

I'm not following the reasoning here. OTC shares must be a very small part of the business. How would this be interpreted as Vanguard failing financially? I wouldn't be surprised if they lost money dealing in OTC, so it would make sense for them to get out.

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Impatience
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby Impatience »

I bet that tiny tiny bit of OTC business accounts for a disproportionate share of headaches and customer service. Will allow them to fire 1-2 call center reps and maybe shave some more fees off somewhere.

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quietseas
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby quietseas »

It means they don't want to be in the business of being a full service, no cost brokerage, and perhaps in the future they will continue to stop offering some services that are typically offered by a full service brokerage. They want to cut expenses, and apparently this is one that is costing them money with little benefit. This isn't new: they dropped cash management accounts a few years ago.

Structure your portfolio to switch brokers if you need to. Don't assume you will be with Vanguard for life. Vanguard is a business not a trusted family member.

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (1)

retired@50
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby retired@50 »

Maybe it's a polite way of saying, "If you want to trade penny stocks, do it someplace else".

Regards,

If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell

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tryingtobogle
Posts: 49
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby tryingtobogle »

bberris wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:35 amI'm not following the reasoning here. OTC shares must be a very small part of the business. How would this be interpreted as Vanguard failing financially? I wouldn't be surprised if they lost money dealing in OTC, so it would make sense for them to get out.

Idk. I'm just wondering if anyone has some additional insight as to what this might mean. It might be a nothingburger but I have no idea.

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Da5id
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby Da5id »

tryingtobogle wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:31 amHi all,

You may have seen the email from Vanguard saying they will remove some of their OTC securities. The reasoning: "This change allows us to better support a targeted, enduring suite of products and services rooted in Vanguard's time-tested investment philosophy and built to help secure the long-term success of investors."

Does this have any significant meaning for the long-term health of the company? I know they say they want to secure the long-term success of investors, but I'm guessing it means they don't want to pay for these services anymore while other brokerages seem to have no problem doing so. Or maybe other brokerages will follow suite?

The email also says that people can always sell these securities even if Vanguard won't sell them. But how long does this typically last?

A company abandoning a marginal part of its business doesn't concern me in the least.

Clearly Vanguard isn't perfect. Lots of people seem to have gripes about it in the forums. I've been fine so far, but wouldn't hesitate to go elsewhere if I become unsatisfied. If you feel the competition serves you better, or you like OTC stocks, by all means chose another brokerage. But Vanguard leaving OTC is probably not on most peoples lists of issues, as opposed to say Vanguards not so great mechanisms of customer engagement (phasing out messaging, limited hours, no online chat, long phone wait times experienced by some), mediocre phone app, and aging IT infrastructure.

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jpelder
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby jpelder »

It's a non-issue in my mind. They're focusing on their core business, which is low-cost mutual funds and ETFs, with some normal stockbroker services, too. But they've never been the best place if you want something more than basic mutual fund/ETF investing

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retiringwhen
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby retiringwhen »

Vanguard has been steadily narrowing its brokerage offerings to attract long-term, buy and hold investors.

Their dropping leveraged ETFs and now OTC stocks is consistent with that strategy.

BTW, there has been some SEC regulations related to "penny stocks" that has added significant burden on brokerages that trade them. Vanguard may have simply made a cost benefit analysis that said the service was no longer worth it.

If you want to trade OTC stocks, there are surely better brokerage with better trading tools than Vanguard anyway with their basic at best trading and data feeds.

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (2)

nisiprius
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby nisiprius »

For as long as I've been using Vanguard Brokerage Services, which goes back to the era when it was provided by Pershing and simply private-badged as Vanguard, Vanguard Brokerage Services have always been what might be called a "perfectly adequate" brokerage--for people whose core investments are Vanguard mutual funds and ETFs.

It has never been the connoisseur's choice of brokerages. If you say "I don't plan to invest in any Fidelity funds, what's a good all-purpose online brokerage," someone might well suggest Fidelity anyway. Ditto Schwab. But if you say "I don't plan to invest in any Vanguard funds, what's a good all-purpose online brokerage," I don't think anyone would ever have said "Vanguard."

My personal wild guess is that this move might have something to do with cryptocurrency-based products that are offered only as OTC securities.

Vanguard stopped offering leveraged ETFs a while ago. It is a subtle thing but I believe that, even today, Vanguard does have a core culture that emphasizes what John C. Bogle called "investment," as opposed to "speculation."

The dropping of leveraged ETFs coincided with some SEC proposals that brokerages needed to put some extra requirements on customers who wanted to buy them. I don't think the proposals were ever implemented, but maybe it would make sense is that Vanguard does not want to deal with customers who need to be specially qualified or sign special paperwork to buy riskier kinds of investments.

I might be naïve, this might just be "When in danger or in doubt/Run in circles, scream and shout." At least, though, it isn't someone screaming "We need to be more like Robinhood Markets!"

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

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retiringwhen
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby retiringwhen »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:52 amAt least, though, it isn't someone screaming "We need to be more like Robinhood Markets!"

We only need one Robinhood!

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (3)

LadyGeek
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby LadyGeek »

I merged tryingtobogle's thread into the ongoing discussion. The combined thread is in the Investing - Theory, News & General forum (news).

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and explained what's wrong.)

Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (4) To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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GP813
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby GP813 »

Vanguard is becoming more limited, while not improving in any tangible way. They are taking in a lot of fund inflows so I guess at the end of the day that is all that matters to them but the customer service is getting worse, the website(s) are a mess, they are offering more advisor funds in what seems like an obvious cash grab, and they are prioritizing ETFs over mutuals funds which doesn't jive with "Vanguard's time-tested investment philosophy...built to help secure the long-term success of investors."

Even if I do not frequently trade OTC or ADR's I want to have the option to trade whatever I want, two thumbs down Vanguard Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (5) Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (6) .

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (7)

Croce
Posts: 10
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Vanguard No Longer Trading OTC Securities!!!

Postby Croce »

[Thread merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

I just received this email today. If there was ever any doubt that I made the right move by switching to Schwab recently. This email solidifies that decision.

Dear Vanguard Client,

Beginning April 28, 2022, Vanguard will no longer accept purchases and transfers in of most over-the-counter (OTC) securities. This change allows us to better support a targeted, enduring suite of products and services rooted in Vanguard's time-tested investment philosophy and built to help secure the long-term success of investors.

According to our records, you either currently hold at least one of these restricted securities in your portfolio or have traded them in the past.

What does this mean for the securities I hold?

You can continue to hold and sell your positions in these securities. You can also make additional purchases of a small selection of global American Depositary Receipts (ADRs). Here's how you can determine if you hold an ADR that won't be restricted.

All three of the following criteria must apply to the ADR:

Consists of a five-letter ticker symbol that ends in "Y." This confirms it's traded OTC.
Has a market capitalization of over $300 million (in U.S. dollars). Market capitalization is the total market value of a company's outstanding shares.
Belongs to the top three tiers of the OTC markets (Pink Current, OTCQB, and OTCQX). These markets are up to date with disclosures and listing requirements.

Learn more about the OTC markets and individual securities at otcmarkets.com.

Thank you for investing with Vanguard.

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (8)

Gort
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Re: Vanguard No Longer Trading OTC Securities!!!

Postby Gort »

Croce wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:13 amI just received this email today. If there was ever any doubt that I made the right move by switching to Schwab recently. This email solidifies that decision.

Dear Vanguard Client,

Beginning April 28, 2022, Vanguard will no longer accept purchases and transfers in of most over-the-counter (OTC) securities. This change allows us to better support a targeted, enduring suite of products and services rooted in Vanguard's time-tested investment philosophy and built to help secure the long-term success of investors.

According to our records, you either currently hold at least one of these restricted securities in your portfolio or have traded them in the past.

What does this mean for the securities I hold?

You can continue to hold and sell your positions in these securities. You can also make additional purchases of a small selection of global American Depositary Receipts (ADRs). Here's how you can determine if you hold an ADR that won't be restricted.

All three of the following criteria must apply to the ADR:

Consists of a five-letter ticker symbol that ends in "Y." This confirms it's traded OTC.
Has a market capitalization of over $300 million (in U.S. dollars). Market capitalization is the total market value of a company's outstanding shares.
Belongs to the top three tiers of the OTC markets (Pink Current, OTCQB, and OTCQX). These markets are up to date with disclosures and listing requirements.

Learn more about the OTC markets and individual securities at otcmarkets.com.

Thank you for investing with Vanguard.

Blasphemy! I'm glad you found a place that serves your needs. For me, I'll just keep my dollars at Vanguard since I have no need to trade individual securities.

Last edited by Gort on Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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runner3081
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Re: Vanguard No Longer Trading OTC Securities!!!

Postby runner3081 »

Index funds/ETF's aren't OTC... so, who cares?

BTW, in before the lock on the rant Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (9)

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barnaclebob
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Re: Vanguard No Longer Trading OTC Securities!!!

Postby barnaclebob »

Good, that means fewer expensive customers with gambling habits for me to subsidize.

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erik265
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:55 am

OTC in IRA

Postby erik265 »

[Thread merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

No more OTC trading after 4/28 Is that true?

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (10)

David Jay
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Re: OTC in IRA

Postby David Jay »

This is likely a brokerage-specific limitation. For instance, Vanguard limits access to leveraged ETFs.

Which brokerage holds your IRA?

It's not an engineering problem - Hersh Shefrin | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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MrJedi
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Re: OTC in IRA

Postby MrJedi »

I think you are referring to Vanguard specifically.

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erik265
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Re: OTC in IRA

Postby erik265 »

Yes for Vanguard so there will be some new regulations starting 4/28??

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (11)

LadyGeek
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby LadyGeek »

I merged Croce's and erik265's threads into the ongoing discussion.

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and provided a link to this thread.)

Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (12) To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (13)

starboi
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Re: OTC in IRA

Postby starboi »

erik265 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:31 pmYes for Vanguard so there will be some new regulations starting 4/28??

It's not a regulation. Vanguard is removing services for business reasons.

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bigdog34
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby bigdog34 »

Maybe I'm self-centered with my thinking, but I'd guess that one of the more popular OTC products held by Vanguard customers in this forum is GBTC in their IRAs. Vanguard is saying that in about a week I can no longer buy this?

Update: tried to call Vanguard CS. About a 2 hour wait, will report back if I learn anything... as of now I assume GBTC will be included in the list of non-available OTC products.

Last edited by bigdog34 on Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (14)

LadyGeek
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby LadyGeek »

GBTC - Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (trading US: OTC).

Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (15) To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (16)

oldzey
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby oldzey »

bigdog34 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:50 pmMaybe I'm self-centered with my thinking, but I'd guess that one of the more popular OTC products held by Vanguard customers in this forum is GBTC in their IRAs. Vanguard is saying that in about a week I can no longer buy this?

Update: tried to call Vanguard CS. About a 2 hour wait, will report back if I learn anything... as of now I assume GBTC will be included in the list of non-available OTC products.

I'm curious to hear what you learn about GBTC - Grayscale Bitcoin Trust. I hold some GBTC in my Roth and I also received the email from Vanguard.

"The broker said the stock was 'poised to move.' Silly me, I thought he meant up." ― Randy Thurman

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bigdog34
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby bigdog34 »

might not surprise you, but vanguard CS didnt have the option to hold your place in line and the wait time was like 2 hours to speak with the investment team (I hung up). I havent gotten an email but assume that I wont be able to buy more GBTC after this month. Per OPs email, it looks like we can still sell what GBTC we have after the cut off date (just cant buy more).

a bit of a bummer-- since I drew up a plan to split my BTC holdings into half BTC and half GBTC, and my only selling for rebalancing purposes would be GBTC in my roth (therefore avoiding hefty cap gains taxes). Best laid plans...

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tryingtobogle
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby tryingtobogle »

bigdog34 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:47 pmmight not surprise you, but vanguard CS didnt have the option to hold your place in line and the wait time was like 2 hours to speak with the investment team (I hung up). I havent gotten an email but assume that I wont be able to buy more GBTC after this month. Per OPs email, it looks like we can still sell what GBTC we have after the cut off date (just cant buy more).

a bit of a bummer-- since I drew up a plan to split my BTC holdings into half BTC and half GBTC, and my only selling for rebalancing purposes would be GBTC in my roth (therefore avoiding hefty cap gains taxes). Best laid plans...

That is a bummer. I also hold GBTC (and some ETHE) in my Roth IRA. I am also assuming this means we can't buy either on Vanguard in 10 days.

I have been annoyed with Vanguard for a while anyway so will likely be moving to Fidelity soon. Just need to convert my VTWAX into VT and then I'll be good to go!

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erik265
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby erik265 »

GP813 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:02 amVanguard is becoming more limited, while not improving in any tangible way. They are taking in a lot of fund inflows so I guess at the end of the day that is all that matters to them but the customer service is getting worse, the website(s) are a mess, they are offering more advisor funds in what seems like an obvious cash grab, and they are prioritizing ETFs over mutuals funds which doesn't jive with "Vanguard's time-tested investment philosophy...built to help secure the long-term success of investors."

Even if I do not frequently trade OTC or ADR's I want to have the option to trade whatever I want, two thumbs down Vanguard Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (17) Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (18) .

Well Jack Bogle passed away maybe some of his essence and guidance went with him.

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secondopinion
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby secondopinion »

I see a lot of hand-holding by brokerages as of late, and I am getting more and more bothered by it. I heard that Schwab required phone orders for negative real-yield TIPS and Fidelity warns the user (as to save the investor from themselves). The last thing I want is them telling me "you do not know what you are doing; we will tell you what you should do". If I did not know what I was doing, then why am I doing just fine?

I know it is a bit of a rant, but I am seeing a trend that could be hurtful to small investors. OTCs are one thing, but I think some of the other things are getting out of hand.

Passive investing: not about making big bucks but making profits. Active investing: not about beating the market but meeting goals. Speculation: not about timing the market but taking profitable risks.

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enuff
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby enuff »

secondopinion wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:17 pmI see a lot of hand-holding by brokerages as of late, and I am getting more and more bothered by it. I heard that Schwab required phone orders for negative real-yield TIPS and Fidelity warns the user (as to save the investor from themselves). The last thing I want is them telling me "you do not know what you are doing; we will tell you what you should do". If I did not know what I was doing, then why am I doing just fine?

I know it is a bit of a rant, but I am seeing a trend that could be hurtful to small investors. OTCs are one thing, but I think some of the other things are getting out of hand.

To play devil's advocate, apparently there were not enough warnings to advise against putting Target Date Funds in taxable accounts and then when they gave off huge capital gains Vanguard got hit with heat from every angle. Damned if you try to protect people from themselves, damned if you let people dig their own graves, a brokerage really can't win.

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Tanelorn
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby Tanelorn »

Disappointing for sure.

For those that don’t know, there are lots of OTC stocks that aren’t “penny stocks” (those were already restricted by vanguard back in 2020 to those reporting current financials). There are 100 year old preferred stocks paying good rates, solid profitable businesses in low single digit P/E’s that don’t want the expense and hassle of SEC filings, more small and medium sized banks than I can count (many cheap and/or buyout targets), etc. that’s without the previously mentioned and very popular otc crypto trusts for BTC or ETH exposure. thousands and thousands of stocks out there that we won’t be able to buy now.

But we all know Vanguard knows best. Just buy more funds and stop trying to make money investing. Let us do it for you, and you’re guaranteed to underperform some index (by just a little).

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (19)

nisiprius
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby nisiprius »

secondopinion wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:17 pm... I heard that Schwab required phone orders for negative real-yield TIPS and Fidelity warns the user (as to save the investor from themselves)...

This isn't new. Fidelity's online system would not let you order negative real-yield-to-maturity TIPS way back in maybe 2009 or 2010. If they let you do it now, but give you a warning, then they are less restrictive than they used to be.

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lazynovice
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby lazynovice »

Fidelity limits trading to certain OTC stocks. It is a source of great consternation on its Reddit customer service forum.

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secondopinion
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Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby secondopinion »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:05 pm

secondopinion wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:17 pm... I heard that Schwab required phone orders for negative real-yield TIPS and Fidelity warns the user (as to save the investor from themselves)...

This isn't new. Fidelity's online system would not let you order negative real-yield-to-maturity TIPS way back in maybe 2009 or 2010. If they let you do it now, but give you a warning, then they are less restrictive than they used to be.

My mistake then. Warnings are better than lockdowns; at least I can do what I need to do.

Passive investing: not about making big bucks but making profits. Active investing: not about beating the market but meeting goals. Speculation: not about timing the market but taking profitable risks.

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homebuyer6426
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:08 am

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby homebuyer6426 »

Yes, this was very sudden. 10 day warning. I hedge a significant percent of my mostly VTI portfolio with an OTC.

I think this help makes the case for using multiple services. Big rule changes with very little warning don't inspire a feeling of stability. Vanguard encourages a passive investing strategy of "set it and forget it", how is one supposed to forget it if they have to watch for rule changes? In order to keep my investment strategy I'll have to open a second account at a competitor. To spread the eggs into even baskets, there is no reason to keep contributing to my Vanguard account for at least a decade. Is that the disincentive they wanted to create?

57% Total Stock Market | 36% Consumer Staples | 7% Short Term Reserves

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exodusNH
Posts: 7679
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:21 pm

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby exodusNH »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:31 amYes, this was very sudden. 10 day warning. I hedge a significant percent of my mostly VTI portfolio with an OTC.

I think this help makes the case for using multiple services. Big rule changes with very little warning don't inspire a feeling of stability. Vanguard encourages a passive investing strategy of "set it and forget it", how is one supposed to forget it if they have to watch for rule changes? In order to keep my investment strategy I'll have to open a second account at a competitor. To spread the eggs into even baskets, there is no reason to keep contributing to my Vanguard account for at least a decade. Is that the disincentive they wanted to create?

I bet the number of people trading these products are a rounding error compared to Vanguard's customer base. I also bet the cost of supporting these products is disproportionate to the customer count.

They are not, and clearly have no desire, to be a generic brokerage. And who can blame them? There's very little money to be made there compared to the customer service, infrastructure, and reporting requirements.

If you leave them but continue holding their ETFs, they still get your ER money and have absolutely none of the costs.

The 10-day notification is not excusable, though.

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homebuyer6426
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:08 am

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby homebuyer6426 »

exodusNH wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:40 amIf you leave them but continue holding their ETFs, they still get your ER money and have absolutely none of the costs.

That's a good point. There are total market funds from other providers with similar expense ratios though.

All this does make me wonder, why now? Did something change compared to previous years?

57% Total Stock Market | 36% Consumer Staples | 7% Short Term Reserves

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Whakamole
Posts: 1703
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:59 pm

Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby Whakamole »

enuff wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:40 pm

secondopinion wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:17 pmI see a lot of hand-holding by brokerages as of late, and I am getting more and more bothered by it. I heard that Schwab required phone orders for negative real-yield TIPS and Fidelity warns the user (as to save the investor from themselves). The last thing I want is them telling me "you do not know what you are doing; we will tell you what you should do". If I did not know what I was doing, then why am I doing just fine?

I know it is a bit of a rant, but I am seeing a trend that could be hurtful to small investors. OTCs are one thing, but I think some of the other things are getting out of hand.

To play devil's advocate, apparently there were not enough warnings to advise against putting Target Date Funds in taxable accounts and then when they gave off huge capital gains Vanguard got hit with heat from every angle. Damned if you try to protect people from themselves, damned if you let people dig their own graves, a brokerage really can't win.

Vanguard didn't have any warnings not to purchase Target Date funds in taxable.

There is also a difference between a warning and preventing a transaction.

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (20)

firebirdparts
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Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby firebirdparts »

I'm not sure what is allowed at FIDO but I do know it's a fee service. So evidently it's the expense that they're getting rid of. They could charge enough to pay for it, but maybe they'd just rather not.

A fool and your money are soon partners

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (21)

oldzey
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:38 pm
Location: Land of Lincoln

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby oldzey »

bigdog34 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:47 pmmight not surprise you, but vanguard CS didnt have the option to hold your place in line and the wait time was like 2 hours to speak with the investment team (I hung up). I havent gotten an email but assume that I wont be able to buy more GBTC after this month. Per OPs email, it looks like we can still sell what GBTC we have after the cut off date (just cant buy more).

a bit of a bummer-- since I drew up a plan to split my BTC holdings into half BTC and half GBTC, and my only selling for rebalancing purposes would be GBTC in my roth (therefore avoiding hefty cap gains taxes). Best laid plans...

It will be interesting to see if GBTC is converted to a spot ETF (the Securities and Exchange Commission has a July 6 deadline to rule on it). If that occurs, I'm wondering if the new ETF would still be considered an OTC stock (or not).

"The broker said the stock was 'poised to move.' Silly me, I thought he meant up." ― Randy Thurman

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Tanelorn
Posts: 2254
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 9:35 pm

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby Tanelorn »

exodusNH wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:40 amI bet the number of people trading these products are a rounding error compared to Vanguard's customer base. I also bet the cost of supporting these products is disproportionate to the customer count.

They are not, and clearly have no desire, to be a generic brokerage. And who can blame them? There's very little money to be made there compared to the customer service, infrastructure, and reporting requirements.

If you leave them but continue holding their ETFs, they still get your ER money and have absolutely none of the costs.

You make a good case for them no longer supporting listed stocks. Maybe they should just stop supporting all stocks. I mean, stocks are a PITA to support, just offer ETFs and mutual funds. Save more on customer service, lower those ERs another 0.01 bp.

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Tanelorn
Posts: 2254
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 9:35 pm

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby Tanelorn »

oldzey wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:26 pmIt will be interesting to see if GBTC is converted to a spot ETF (the Securities and Exchange Commission has a July 6 deadline to rule on it). If that occurs, I'm wondering if the new ETF would still be considered an OTC stock (or not).

The SEC hates crypto currently, so I don’t hold any hope for spot crypto ETFs. If you’re not trading futures or coins directly, you’re not going to be get exposure without OTC access for those trusts. I guess you can trade some stocks like MSTR or crypto miners, but those feel more like scams or wild speculation and that’s compared to regular BTC as a baseline Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (22) .

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calwatch
Posts: 1231
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:48 am

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby calwatch »

I think this decision is fine if it creates a barrier to entry for someone so they don't invest into some random company they heard of or a poorly defined cryptocurrency trust. Those who want a more robust trading experience have already gone elsewhere.

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Gaston
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:12 pm

Re: Vanguard removing OTC securities. What does this mean for the company?

Postby Gaston »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:52 am[Vanguard] has never been the connoisseur's choice of brokerages.

I agree completely. Vanguard never has been an "all services" brokerage. And for Vanguard, I think that was and still is a correct decision.

“My opinions are just that - opinions.”

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rolandtorres
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby rolandtorres »

CEO Buckley is pursuing a freemium model by taking away things that were free before for brokerage customers (i.e. decent customer support) and charging 30 basis points for it in VPAS. If you don't like it, convert your funds to etf's and transfer in kind somewhere else; if you want to trade penny stocks, he's firing you as a brokerage customer. If cash management or crypto or good online account aggregation would please you as a customer, you're not the right customer.

If the Bogle way was to put the small investor first, the Buckley way is to charge the small investor 30 basis points for advice they may not need, much less want.

If the Bogle way was to keep costs low and investments passive, the Buckley way is to upsell investors they've nudged into their VPAS funnel rebranded actively managed funds and private equity.

The true Bogle way would be to provide a sophisticated instrument which abstracts away complexity for retail investors at a low cost. Instead of building more capable, elegant software (when done well, does accomplish this), Buckley is throwing CPA bodies from a call center at investors.

Invest how you will, but on a site called Bogleheads, know that Bogle /= Vanguard today

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (23)

jhfenton
Posts: 4752
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:17 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby jhfenton »

oldzey wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:26 pm

bigdog34 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:47 pmmight not surprise you, but vanguard CS didnt have the option to hold your place in line and the wait time was like 2 hours to speak with the investment team (I hung up). I havent gotten an email but assume that I wont be able to buy more GBTC after this month. Per OPs email, it looks like we can still sell what GBTC we have after the cut off date (just cant buy more).

a bit of a bummer-- since I drew up a plan to split my BTC holdings into half BTC and half GBTC, and my only selling for rebalancing purposes would be GBTC in my roth (therefore avoiding hefty cap gains taxes). Best laid plans...

It will be interesting to see if GBTC is converted to a spot ETF (the Securities and Exchange Commission has a July 6 deadline to rule on it). If that occurs, I'm wondering if the new ETF would still be considered an OTC stock (or not).

I don't expect the SEC to approve the GBTC conversion this summer, but if they did it would become a listed ETF and no longer OTC.

I bought a tiny amount of GBTC (<0.5%) in my wife's IRA, so we also received the email. I have no plans to add to the position, so the new restriction is only mildly annoying. It's the first and only OTC security we've ever bought. Except for extreme value tilts, our investments are usually pretty boring.

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Tanelorn
Posts: 2254
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 9:35 pm

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby Tanelorn »

jhfenton wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:15 amI don't expect the SEC to approve the GBTC conversion this summer, but if they did it would become a listed ETF and no longer OTC.

I bought a tiny amount of GBTC (<0.5%) in my wife's IRA, so we also received the email. I have no plans to add to the position, so the new restriction is only mildly annoying. It's the first and only OTC security we've ever bought. Except for extreme value tilts, our investments are usually pretty boring.

Looks like Fidelity is going to allow direct Bitcoin holdings in 401k plans. I'm sure Vanguard will be last to allow direct crypto, but there are better options coming at other brokerages.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fidelity-t ... 1650945661

Under the plan, Fidelity would let savers allocate as much as 20% of their nest eggs to bitcoin, though that threshold could be lowered by plan sponsors. Mr. Gray said it would be limited to bitcoin initially, but he expects other digital assets to be made available in the future.

Fidelity’s embrace of bitcoin could prompt wider acceptance among employers.

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (24)

starboi
Posts: 605
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:33 am

Re: Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks

Postby starboi »

Tanelorn wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:38 pm

exodusNH wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:40 amI bet the number of people trading these products are a rounding error compared to Vanguard's customer base. I also bet the cost of supporting these products is disproportionate to the customer count.

They are not, and clearly have no desire, to be a generic brokerage. And who can blame them? There's very little money to be made there compared to the customer service, infrastructure, and reporting requirements.

If you leave them but continue holding their ETFs, they still get your ER money and have absolutely none of the costs.

You make a good case for them no longer supporting listed stocks. Maybe they should just stop supporting all stocks. I mean, stocks are a PITA to support, just offer ETFs and mutual funds. Save more on customer service, lower those ERs another 0.01 bp.

Just take away the buy and sell button. And block people from moving money in or out. Oops, they already did that on the app.

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Vanguard will restrict trading in most OTC stocks (2024)
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