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In the big picture, on a very long time horizon, they seemed on a trajectory of irrelevance through the Ballmer era, up until Satya became CEO. (That doesn't even necessarily preclude record profits under Ballmer, but a hide-bound inability to adapt to changing market fundamentals.)PG tried calling it in 2007: http://www.paulgraham.com/microsoft.html They really changed when Satya Nadella came in, however. (Not to romanticize. Big tech has a smarmy evil these days. Ballmer just wanted to sell Windows and Office like products to big enterprises. It was less disturbing than donning their sith robes and joining the rest of big tech in trying to posses our incorporeal souls through massive amounts of data and 'nudges'.) | |
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Which is unfair and short sighted, given that Ballmer is the guy who turned it from the windows shop to a company where windows is just one of 3 growing massive sections (plus a few smaller ones), with windows not even being the first one anymore. | |
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IIRC, Ballmer actually started many of the things that we saw happening early in Satya's tenure. So he deserves at least some credit for seeing the writing on the wall and trying to adapt to it. Perhaps he also figured that in order for the transformation to really happen he had to not be the one trying to lead it. | |
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Ballmer also took charge right after the dotcom bust. Even though the stock tanked from ludicrous highs, revenue steadily grew under his tenure. I can’t speak to how company longevity performed under his reign. | |
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I know Steve. He's been unfairly maligned for a long time. The biography of him is pretty mean. I doubt the author ever even met him. | |
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>Ballmer just wanted to sell Windows and Office like products to big enterprises.Yes, but actually, NO. I know it's fashionable to bash Ballmer for being the stereotypical image of the late '90's corporate villain, pulled right out of Office Space[1], but he was also the one who got the ball rolling on what we today know as Azure and saved the Xbox division during the red ring of death and other major issues that plagued the Xbox 360 and cost Microsoft billions. If he only cared about the enterprise stuff, he would have sold the Xbox division or let it sink at the first sign of losses, but instead he propped it up despite the massive losses. IMHO, he should get some kudos for that as Xbox is currently the only competitor to the Play Station (Nintendo isn't since they do their own thing). "I am trembling, sat in front of Steve (Ballmer), who I love to death, but he can be an intimidating human being. And Steve said, 'OK, talk me through this,'" Moore added. "I said, 'If we don't do this, this brand is dead.'"If we hadn't made that decision there and then, and instead tried to fudge over this problem, then the Xbox brand and Xbox One wouldn't exist today."[2] Ballmer also set the stage for Microsoft's entry into the cloud space in the early days before it was even called Azure, when he saw what AWS was doing. "Steve Ballmer, the former CEO of Microsoft, initially resisted the idea of embracing the software services paradigm fearing that it would cannibalize Windows and Office business which was contributing to 80% of the revenue. Eventually, Ballmer was not only convinced but pushed Microsoft to become a fully-fledged cloud company through “we’re-all-in” war cry."[3] Not saying you should like him or anything, but this guys really deserves more credit that he gets for where Microsoft is today (the good and the bad). As a bonus, for added humor, here he is going crazy on stage about 'DEVELOPERS', like a hamster on cocaine. [4]. [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151804/ [2] https://www.vg247.com/rrod-xbox-360-ballmer-xbox-one [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/janakirammsv/2020/02/03/a-look-... [4] https://youtu.be/I14b-C67EXY?t=12 | |
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> As a bonus, for added humor, here he is going crazy on stage about 'DEVELOPERS',I guess some people found it funny, but everyone I work around as a software developer (not for native Windows/MS, mind) all found it incredibly embarrassing. | |
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>> trying to posses our incorporeal souls...I think this is driven by an addiction of big tech to being 'relevant' and engagement is the metric that gives them that sweet hit of relevancy. Heaven forbid they just turn out a useful product for a reasonable profit. | |
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I similarly don't understand why Netflix is included. Well, I do, but I don't understand why "we" didn't change Cramer's acronym to FAAMG long ago, IMO Netflix does not belong with these names neither in it's size, it's role in tech or it's cash flow. Arguably Nvidia would be a more fitting N, but it's cash flow is not in the same league either. | |
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My understanding is that this acronym is partially based on the perceptions employees have about the compensation and perks given out by big tech companies. Historically, Microsoft didn't pay as well. | |
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I hear that thrown around, but while it may be accurate, it sounds like retconning as Jim Cramer came up with the term, and I can assure you Jim Cramer does not give a damn about developer salaries. It was about fast growing tech stocks, not software engineers.Even that goofball is now calling for FAAMG[0] (well, MAMAA) while (some) devs want to cling on to FAANG. Bit funny how Facebook's name change was apparently the trigger for him. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/29/cramer-new-acronym-to-replac... | |
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Up until the end of the 90s, Microsoft stock was booming enough that it was reasonable for them to compensate employees with less salary and more stock options. They survived the .com crash, but the stock basically flatlined for several years, making options not desirable as compensation. At some point, I think in the mid to late 2000s, they switched to higher salaries and actual stock grants instead of options. So there were a few years where it was paying less than other companies, but they corrected for it. | |
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On the other hand Netflix always had a much smaller rate of hiring than the others. If it was just about high pay Renaissance Technologies could have been included. It is best understood as high pay and large numbers of hires. In that view Netflix looks like a mistaken inclusion. | |
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Jim Cramer coined the term to identify hot stocks. The term was coopted by big tech employees. | |
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Apple and Amazon generally haven't paid as high as FB, Google, and Netflix in total comp either though. Of course in hindsight the stock gains in the past 5 years if you worked at either company have still made you extraordinarily well paid, and same with Microsoft. | |
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> Historically, Microsoft didn't pay as well.Microsoft minted millionaires of its employees like popcorn. In the 90s the newspaper estimated that 10,000 Microsoft millionaires lived in the area. | |
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Tangential thought here: Today it’s fashionable to say that the reason for Seattle area housing costs is “Amazon,” so why wasn’t it the same thing in the 90s with Microsoft? My guess is that it’s a difference of scale: that back then there was still room to build on the eastside, and now it’s not just Microsoft yielding high incomes and wealth, but also Amazon, Google, Facebook, and others. Still, interesting to ponder the real role of these companies in housing costs (since that’s the knee-jerk assumption) | |
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Housing prices in the eastside were definitely blamed on Microsoft.Before Microsoft, for example, Kirkland was where you bought a house if you didn't have much money. Microsoft built their campus next door, and that was the end of cheap Kirkland real estate. Housing prices were closely related to commuting distance from the campus. | |
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My guess would be location. Amazon is one of the only companies to locate in the city. Not near it, in it.Such that the "campus" of other companies is a discrete thing. How this fits for housing is that many new hires to Amazon don't have cars, and choose to live close to where they don't need them. Not really an option for the campus centric companies, where folks live further out and commute. | |
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Seattle commutes are pretty miserable. Always have been. The problem is the metropolitan area rings a huge lake, so a grid arrangement of roads is impossible.The current problem is Sound Transit does not recognize that the metropolitan area rings Lake Washington, and the sensible thing is to build mass transit around that ring. I don't think the ST people have ever looked at a map. Even worse, the old rail corridors that ringed the lake were deliberately destroyed. | |
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I mean. You aren't wrong. But Atlanta commutes were easily as bad back when I lived there. | |
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Amazon isn't known for Silicon Valley comp levels either. | |
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They're catching up with their new pay bands, SDE II is starting to get offers in 350k - 400k range. Can even go higher by Q1 next year. | |
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Their “philosophy of total compensation” used to actually penalize you for past RSU grants appreciating beyond projection. Even with a strong review you’d hear things like you can’t get a salary bump, because you’re already over your target compensation. I wonder if that’s still the case. | |
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Over time I've learned to tune out the reasons that employers use to justify changes to total comp. I just don't see why their reasoning would matter to me.I find it more useful to make my own assessments about what I could make elsewhere, and whether or not (all things considered) I want to continue with my current employer. | |
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Washington Amazon employees don't have to pay the heavy SV taxes, either.At least until lately. Washington is working overtime to raise taxes to California levels. | |
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> to FAAMG long agoBecause Netflix pays Senior Engineers ~$500k/year in cash and MS pays Principal Engineers $300k TC? | |
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The acronym has nothing to do with average developer salaries, for there are lots of other contenders that pay more. | |
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Developer salaries is the only context I’ve ever understood it with. | |
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Originally it was about the companies' high performing stocks. The salaries are a downstream effect, and then it just got adopted by the salary-optimizing crowd of engineers and college students. | |
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I'd love to read an article from an ex-Netflix engineer explaining why their service is such garbage. I want money, but the reason I'd think about asking for that much is because I'd need to interface with massive irritations. | |
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Could you elaborate on what you mean by "such garbage"?E.g., I stopped using Netflix for several reasons: uninteresting content, obnoxious UI, and unhelpful/implausible recommendations system. But I was always very happy with the reliability and performance of their streaming system. | |
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It's not garbage? What are you talking about. | |
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What cheapskates Microsoft are! | |
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Thus ‘GAFAM’, though I've more commonly seen that one in the francophone world. | |
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I'm from Québec and GAFAM is the usual media term for the big tech companies here. Amusing how the acronym got (IMO appropriately) corrected in translation, tho I'm not sure if it's just an artifact of it sounding cool (whereas GAFAN would be read out "gafɑ̃") | |
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I like MANAMANA (doo doooo, doodoo doo!)Microsoft, Apple, Netflix, Alphabet, Meta, Amazon, Nvidia, Adobe | |
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Nvidia isn't as software-focused as the others. Adobe is popularly known to be a software sh*tshow internally, whether that's true or not although by the stability and age of their products I'm inclined to believe they are.Maybe I'm misguided, but what I believe made FAANG a thing is a strong software-focused culture that maintained a level of quality and innovation that usually gets lost at that scale, as was the case with Microsoft and things like IBM. | |
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Adobe's stock did grow 200% during the Pandemic. | |
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Everyone's stock did that during the pandemic. | |
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Any other relatively well established tech company that's not in MANAMA ? | |
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I don't know about Netflix, but I definitely agree Nvidia should be in, coming at 800B market cap. | |
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Adobe ? Why not Borland ? | |
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Is Borland an SaaS behemoth? | |
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Because FAANG was a stock market term for "hot tech stocks", and Microsoft was old and not-hot at the time. | |
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It also meant highest paying companies at one point in the engineer market which is also why it got popular. MS isn’t at the top on that metric | |
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You can find these anecdotes for every one of these companies. My perception is that Amazon has the worst reputation but I haven't done any market research or worked at any of them. | |
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Yes, but bad in different ways. Amazon's reputation is that they overwork you and people only stay until their "golden handcuffs" vest. But their code quality and tooling is seen as excellent. | |
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I don't include microsoft so I can say they're "working for the MAAAN." | |
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Totally agree on the Microsoft point, although another poster pointed out that from an investment perspective faang may have referred to high roi companies so maybe microsoft was too well established? Not my are of expertise.In any case Im going to throw NAMMA out there too because I can say it easier and it leaves room for infinite M companies :) | |
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> MANAMADoo doo do do do. | |
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> Doo doo do do do.MANAMA | |
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Jim Cramer invents these acronyms | |
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Manama is the capital of Bahrain :)I prefer MANAAM, which is derived from the word “sleep” in Arabic. | |
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The new challengers need to name themselves all D and O names.Do doo do doo | |
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MMNAAA! Pronounced like you’re saying “Hmm, nah.” | |
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Don't throw around slurs like that. | |
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Don't tell me what to do. I try to assume good intentions. The word you're referring to has multiple meanings. | |
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This is the least good intentioned response you could have made. | |
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I've made a similar joke that the N in FAANG really holds the whole thing together. | |
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> wondered why Microsoft was left out of the original 5Same reason Cornell is typically left out of conversations about Ivy league schools. It's just not that prestigious. Seeing MS on a resume is not as impressive as the others, and that's also reflected pretty clearly in the comp. It's not nearly as competitive to get a job at MS. The stock performance over the past decade has been pretty meh compared to the others. | |
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How is Cornell Tech's campus doing at Roosevelt Island, NYC?Microsoft has some really cool stuff going on aside from .NET Core.Simon Peyton Jones has been there since the late 90s working on Haskell.Some notable ones for me: F#, F*, Z3 (SMT solver), C# and its ubiquity in products like Unity, WSL2, VS Code, etc... What's up with Hololens 2? Any uptake? I would like to make a short video of the ultimate PC vs. Mac parody with two armies facing each other with one wearing the stylish MR glasses coming from Apple vs. the more typical-looking HMD Hololens for nostalgia's sake. I have been in computing for a long time, and all of my jobs have been on PCs with Windows other than the weird Banyan Vines, VMS, Irix, and QNX systems I have worked with over the years. All my graphic artist friends had Apple products. I have had one job where I used Quickbooks on an old Apple Macintosh (1994), but not much else with it. I did put a deposit on a NeXT machine, but that fell through! I have had a computer since 1977, a Commodore PET 2001 followed by a Vic-20. A Toshiba dual-floppy laptop that probably wouldn't fit under the seat in front in Economy Class seating. My first Apple was a Power Macintosh in 1995/96 (I think the 7200) on which I loaded Minix or some Minix derivative at a later date, a pen-based NCR 3125. Amazingly slim for the time, and I updated the drive in it a year or two later. My first real micro-electronics project. The Newton came out around the same time. The NCR 3125 was a 386 running PenOS that I eventually put Windows with pen support on. Various PCs I built (a RAID 0, Dual-Athlon anyone?) in the early 2000s running Blender3D. I donated $50 to support Ton's efforts to take it open source back then. And so on...Microsoft has always had the tech, but not the marketing or style of Apple. I currently use a Windows 10 gaming laptop, an old Lenovo running Kali, a 2011 iMac (1TB HD! 16 or 32 GB of RAM - I have to look). I just want tools I can use. The only computer/OS I was evangelical about was mh Amiga 1000 and 500! | |
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> How is Cornell Tech's campus doing at Roosevelt Island, NYC?I dunno, but every time I head over to that end of the island it seems pretty dead. There is the Graduate Hotel with the swanky Panorama Room bar on top that’s fun to visit (watch seaplanes land every half hour some days), the fancy cafe is open, there’s nice open plazas between buildings, it connects to the park overlooking the river (and FDR memorial beyond) … but it’s all so empty. I can’t imagine it’s operating at normal capacity. North end is better anyway ;) | |
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That's a shame. It's a great location. Near Manhattan, but it has that 'other' feeling, but maybe that's me. I was born and raised in Brooklyn, and RI was always 'other'! | |
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I think Microsoft and Amazon have the most interesting products as far as dev tooling. Unless you're really into ML I guess. Too bad they don't pay as well. | |
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Yes, I actually liked VS Code a lot, and I was an emacs user before that. MSVS is pretty good too. I am still using F# here and there for small, personal projects but I use my iPad Pro (2015) with Frank Kruger's [1] Continuous app[2], an F# and C# IDE with a built-in compiler, syntax highlighting, code completion, and live debugging. Frank is a juggernaut in .NET and many other eclectic things within the tech domain! Check him out. Continuous is the best way to play with code outside of sitting at your desktop, and even then too![1] https://praeclarum.org/ [2] http://continuous.codes/ | |
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> The stock performance over the past decade has been pretty meh compared to the others.MSFT’s ten year total return (1482%) is better than AAPL’s (1256%) or GOOG’s (815%), but not as good as AMZN’s (1629%) or NFLX’s (6250%). FB hadn’t IPOed yet ten years ago. This is per a site called finbox. | |
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Thanks. Don’t care enough to do a deep dive but it seems like at least MSFT is in the pack. | |
